MKULTRA-linked Human Experimentation and Torture in Canada
Our Hidden History Interviews
mp3 embed from archive.org
OHH We have with us here today Mr. Steve Smith. He is the author of the book called The Psychopath Machine. I'm very glad to have him here to tell his story. In 1968, when he was just a teenager, Steve found himself pulled into the justice system in Canada, and as happens all too often, I think the system sort of took over and Steve, though he was brought in for a very minor crime, eventually ended up in Oak Ridge Penetanguishene mental hospital for the criminally insane and was subjected to a really bizarre series of "treatment" I guess you might call it, but a judge has recently ruled that that was more torture. Thank you, Steve, for agreeing to talk.
I first heard about Steve in a [Black Op Radio] radio interview he did in 2001, and a couple months ago I ran across some articles in Canada's Globe and Mail that a judge had made a ruling due to a class action lawsuit from several patients that were at this facility that what happened there was indeed torture. So if I can just read a couple paragraphs from this article. This is the Globe and Mail, June 7, 2017.
"Patients at a maximum security mental health facility in Ontario were tortured by medical doctors over a 17 year period in unethical and degrading human experiments a judge has ruled in a lawsuit. Techniques used on the patients between 1966 and 1983 included solitary confinement as treatment and as punishment, administration of hallucinogens and delirium producing drugs, including LSD, and brainwashing methods developed by the CIA according to Justice Paul Perrell of Ontario Superior Court of Justice."
"Some of the patients at Oak Ridge division of the Penetanguishene Mental Health Center in central Ontario had been charged with crimes such as rape, murder and child abuse and been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Others had simply been committed by their doctors" -- and in Steve's case I guess committed sort of by the justice system, but we'll talk about all that -- "Oak Ridge doctors contended that with intensive therapy the patients could some day be freed. An estimated 1,260 patients spent time in the program between 1965 and 1979."
When this series of articles came out and this ruling came out, how did that make you feel, that a judge had finally ruled what had happened to you to be torture and completely unethical?
Steve Smith It didn't really mean all that much to me. I knew that for decades. I started working on this probably 20 years ago and went through a 16 year lawsuit myself. I actually started what eventually turned into the class action lawsuit, although I didn't want to be part of the class action suit because I didn't consider myself to be part of that class at all. So it wasn't surprising that they finally came around to recognizing that what they were doing in there was torture because it was.
But more important is why were they doing it? What was the purpose of this? What was behind all of this? As far as I know, the judge didn't really make any comments on the reason for it, just the facts that it was torture. I'm assuming they made some kind of settlement with the people involved in the class action suit. I settled myself several years ago in a different circumstance.
OHH Do you want to talk a little bit about how you got pulled into the system and how you found yourself in that hospital and what that hospital kind of was to people in Ontario and how you found yourself in there? Then we can talk about the events that occurred in there.
Steve Smith Okay. It's probably better described in my book, The Psychopath Machine.
OHH I want to say I read the book and it's a very interesting book and people should ... If they really want hear the full story of what has happened, should definitely pick up that book. It's available on Amazon and it's definitely really an interesting expose of what happened to Steve here.
Steve Smith Essentially I was a hippie in 1968, hitchhiking across Canada, heading for the west coast, which a lot of people in my generation were doing at the time. I had found myself in a circumstance where I was pretty much stuck in a spot in the road freezing cold, and wound up stealing a car. Got busted, and of course I had some LSD at the time, did that, and the assumption was that I must be psychotic, because they didn't know very much about LSD at the time.
It was a brief thing. It was a one day episode, but when I went in front of a judge the next day they sent me off for observation. Apparently in all of my research over the years, it looks as though they were profiling people. They were looking for people that fit into a certain category, and ultimately I was shipped off to Penetanguishene Hospital for the Criminally Insane, committed for no particular reason, and then found myself in this program for eight months. Fortunately only eight months. Other people who were there much longer probably did much worse than me. That's how I wound up in the program.
It's a nightmare scenario. I suppose movies have been made of people being dragged backwards down the halls screaming, "I'm not crazy," in this nightmare psychiatric hospital. That's precisely what Oak Ridge is. It doesn't look like a hospital at all. It looks like a prison. The building is gone now, but there are historic records of it, absolutely nightmarish. It's a horrid place, steel bars ... When you go in there you don't see the daylight again until you get out, and in many cases that means forever.
Yeah, it's not the kind of place that ... See, I knew about Oak Ridge beforehand. I suppose it was just kind of an urban myth, this place in Georgian Bay in Ontario, this isolated place that strange things go on, and then one day I found myself locked up in there.
OHH You talk some in your book about some of the people who were in there. I mean you were taken for stealing a car and happened to have taken some LSD and put in with really some of the worst of the worst. Do you want to talk about some of the people who you were thrown in there with?
Steve Smith These were bad, bad, bad people. It's hard to have sympathy for them. You can't torture people. It doesn't matter how bad they are, you can't use them as guinea pigs. You can't use them as subjects for some nefarious government-inspired brainwashing program. You can't do that, no matter how bad these people are. But they are murderers, rapists, arsonists -- mostly psychopaths.
What they were up to in Oak Ridge had in my opinion, and this comes from decades of research and I think the courts would agree with it now ... They weren't looking to cure psychopaths. They were looking to either uncover psychopaths and put them to use or to create psychopaths. That's what this was about. The concept of psychopathy was relatively new then. They didn't know a lot about it, how does one become a psychopath?
Because of the nature of these people, they commit these crimes with absolutely no conscience, no empathy. To certain elements of society -- military, police -- that can be a useful thing, someone working for you that has no empathy. So I believe that this program in Oak Ridge and other places inspired by CIA and other defense contractors, they were looking for ways to sort out non-psychopaths from psychopathic personalities and put them to use, and that's precisely what they did.
Over a period of maybe 20 years of research, I found enough evidence to really back that up. But getting on to the people again, one that recently died, Peter Woodcock, also known as Kruger, a very bad guy, multiple child molester and murderer ... I was handcuffed to this guy while on drugs for days on end -- just nightmare scenarios. These are all very bad people.
I'd like to say one of the problems with this lawsuit, the class action lawsuit being resolved, what I'm concerned about is what happens when you give these people a settlement? What happens when you give them money? I don't know who survived and I don't know much about the state of mind of these people today -- how they are. But if indeed they are seriously damaged psychopaths ... And by the way, I'm not a psychopath. If they are seriously damaged psychopaths, then if you give them a huge court settlement, you might facilitate them to do horrible things.
I'm not sure if a financial settlement is really a good thing in this, my opinion. Comparing it to the financial settlement for Native schools, with the problem in the past with abuse in Native schools, where they gave a lot of survivors a financial settlement and many of them just drank themselves to death with it. Very bad ... Just giving them money is not the solution.
So the lawsuit, I don't know. It's not very meaningful to me. What's important is what was behind this and what did this lawsuit reveal. Are they going to settle this and just give these people money and say okay, it's over? Well, it's not over.
OHH Let's go ... I'm going to go over some of the ... This is from the Toronto Sun, June 8, 2017. These are a few paragraphs that describe the actual "treatments" that were handed out. Then you can talk about your experience with them:
"They [the treatments] were developed at Oak Ridge and administered in part by Dr. Elliott Thompson Barker and Dr. Gary Maier, the two psychiatrists named as plaintiffs in the suit."
"Defense Disruptive Therapy involved forcibly giving patients hallucinogenic and delirium-producing drugs in order to break down the patient's defense mechanisms and force them to confront their abnormal behavior."
"The Motivation Attitude Participation Program involved forcing patients to complete 14 days of perfect behavior, including adhering to rules about unauthorized talking or movement."
"One component of the program involved forcing patients to sit on a bare floor with hands cuffed, only allowing them to move four times within four hours within a confined space of three feet. Failure to comply could result in forced sedation or being placed in solitary confinement."
"A third initiative" -- which you talk about in your book -- "is called the Capsule Program, involved chaining up seven people together in a room, stripping then naked and keeping them in that state for days at a time. The room was continuously lit and featured holes in the walls through which occupants were fed only liquid food through straws. Patients were kept under constant surveillance and often given hallucinogenic drugs against their will."
You experienced this yourself. Can you describe further what that was like and what you ... did you think there was any purpose to it or did you feel ... You also talked about these patient committees, where the patients were the ones deciding what other patients got drugs and things like this. It's the inmates running the asylum, as you said.
Steve Smith Yeah. It is that bizarre scenario where indeed the inmates were running the asylum. What's interesting about a lot of these programs, as bizarre as they were and as torturous as they were, how they originated. Dr. Barker, before he started work at Oak Ridge, went on a world tour. He was fresh out of university, or medical school. He was hired by Oak Ridge and was given a one year sabbatical where he traveled to East Germany, at the time it was behind the Iron Curtain, and China, Burma.
I had long discussions with him, in the intervening years, about his travels, the places he went and the things that he learned. He went to China before China was even open to the west. How he did that, who knows, but he visited prisons and concentration camps in Iron Curtain countries, and he most certainly learned those techniques and brought them back to Oak Ridge to develop this program. This is documented. I have emails. I'm waiting for Dr. Barker to die. He's still alive. He's about 80 now and he's still in practice. When he's gone I'm going to publish the email conversations between the two of us in which he tells me about his travels in Iron Curtain countries and various torture states and the things that he learned.
In Russia it was very common to put political dissenters into mental hospitals, where they would essentially brainwash them, reeducate them. He learned these techniques from these Iron Curtain countries. He visited China before Nixon opened China to the west. I don't know how he did it, but this is by his own admission, so it's pretty clear to me what they were doing and where these techniques came from. They didn't invent these techniques in Oak Ridge. They were imported from torture states.
OHH Another well documented event in US and I believe Canadian history as well is the fact that there were these Nazi scientists brought in through Operation Paperclip that had done experiments like that during I guess the Second World War. Tell us about ... Do you want to talk about what it was like to be in these experiments? What did you think was happening? Did it have any logic to it while it was happening to you or-
Steve Smith No logic at all. It was no sense to it. Look, the only person that knows oneself is oneself. You know if you're crazy or not. In your own heart you know what motivates you, and when everyone around you is telling you something absolutely opposite of what you know to be true the whole thing becomes insane. The whole environment is unreal.
I was the only one who knew apparently ... At least I thought I was the only one that knew I'm not crazy, I'm not a psychopath. I don't have a lizard brain, all these things you're accusing me of. I have a clinical record in which it says I suffered from the "hippie syndrome". Hippie syndrome? You see, everything to these people is a syndrome or a disorder. They speak of character disorders. You can watch the video called F Ward. I published it on my website. Watch the video called F Ward and you'll see these doctors talking about character disorders.
What on Earth is a character disorder? At that time they made it sound like something that really exists. Today we're much more enlightened and we understand that this is nonsense. I understood that in 1968, but apparently I was the only one that did. The experience itself, it's better described in my book than I can possibly do it in a radio interview. It's intense, it's horrible, and it's life changing.
OHH I guess in reading some of the other documentation there were studies done that proved that looking at the people who came out of this program, they actually ... A lot of them ended up doing worse things and having worse outcomes than the average patient.
Steve Smith Absolutely.
OHH You, yourself ... You can talk how much you like about what happened to you afterwards, but none of this had any positive outcome despite the "doctors" doing this.
Steve Smith The statistics were really clear. It's called the Hucker Report Oak Ridge Review. Clearly the people that went through this program did much worse than those who didn't. I did as well. I was derailed. I was shipwrecked by this. It took me 10 years to recover myself. I went through a lot of difficulty. My life was not good for 10 years following that. Fortunately I didn't hurt anyone or commit any irredeemable crimes.
Today everything is fine. I own my own house and business and have been married for 21 years and life is good, but 10 years following that it was bad. It was hard to get ahold of my life and I'm sure that many people died. Who holds responsibility for the crimes committed by the people that went through this program, when clearly statistically proven people that went through this program committed serious crimes?
OHH Do you want to talk ... A very interesting case, and I guess you knew the guy while you were in there, in Oak Ridge, the case of Matthew Charles Lamb.
Steve Smith Oh yes.
OHH Do you want to talk about his story?
Steve Smith I think Matt Lamb's case, it may be the one case that absolutely defines what this place was about. Matt Lamb, he shot four people in Toronto for no apparent reason, killed two of them and maimed two of them with a shotgun back in I believe it was 1965. He was a very intelligent, articulate, attractive ... He was the typical psychopath through and through. He was one of Dr. Barker's favorite patients. He was given more LSD apparently than anyone in clinical history and he was one of Barker's main subjects.
His fate ... He was released from Oak Ridge in 1972, where he went to live with Dr. Barker and his family on Barker's farm, doing manual labor for him. He next went to Israel and joined the IDF and fought in the Yom Kippur War. Now this is where it gets really complicated. If you look up Matt Lamb on Wikipedia ... You know that Wikipedia is just filled with lies and manipulations.
The story has been altered. He did indeed go to Israel, but they're claiming that the Israeli military refused him. They didn't refuse him. He joined the IDF, where he fought in the Yom Kippur war. I have Barker's own words telling me this, which I will publish. He fought in the Yom Kippur War. He returned afterwards, disillusioned with the IDF, that's Barker's words, and went back to Barker's farm.
He next went to Rhodesia, where he was killed in the Bush War in 1976. He was killed in the Bush War by friendly fire apparently. The questions that this brings up ... First of all, Matt Lamb was under the Lieutenant Governor's Warrant. That is, he was found not guilty by reason of insanity. That would mean that he would essentially be locked up in a mental hospital forever until he could prove that he was no longer a danger to anyone.
The very fact that he told Barker that he wanted to join the military, that means he wanted to have a gun in his hands again. As far as I know, the only time he ever had a gun in his hand was to kill some innocent people. As soon as he indicated that he wanted military experience, he should have been immediately returned to Oak Ridge, not given a passport and sent to Israel. Not to mention, why would Israel want a convicted psychopathic killer in their ranks? Why would they accept him? What did it take to have this guy transferred to Israel and into the military, where he gets military training, then he comes back to Canada -- clearly a psychopath -- with military training? There you go.
Matthew Charles Lamb was the Manchurian Candidate and he was proof, definitive proof that their program worked. That they could take a psychopath and direct him into something useful, i.e. a soldier of fortune, and that's the Matt Lamb story. Very, very interesting story.
OHH This goes back to kind of the MKULTRA, the CIA's experiments in the '50s, '60s and early '70s, the documentation which was investigated by the Church Committee among others. Much of the documentation was destroyed by the Director of the CIA and the person running the program by his own admission, which if it isn't one of the greatest crimes against the record of our national history in the US I don't know what is.
But we know that a lot of these things also went on in Canada. There was Dr. Ewen Cameron with his infamous "Sleep Room" experiments, which are well documented, where much like yourself basically normal people had gone to a psychiatrist seeking help for minor issues and Dr. Cameron ended up -- with CIA funding -- filling them with sedatives for months on end and filling them with LSD and playing tapes over and over until they were ... Basically had their whole personalities wiped out.
There was I guess that book called The Psychopath Test. Do you want to tell us what you know about the relationship between Dr. Barker, the CIA funding that you know of that kind of helped put these experiments together?
Steve Smith Yeah. I know a lot about it as a matter of fact, to some extent how the money came to Oak Ridge, who backed it up, who got the tapes, who got the results of these experiments, who got the hours and hours and hours of video tape of five or six or seven naked young men in The Capsule recorded by state-of-the art video, who paid for it and who got those tapes. Yeah, it's all there, and it's definitely CIA or other cut out organizations.
You might want to read Tom Mangold, if you know Tom Mangold. He's a BBC reporter, old school guy. He's recently written a book called Splashed. In that book there's a chapter dedicated to my story and he ties some things together. Tom Mangold is very well connected. He's absolutely clear on who funded this and what the experiments were about.
It's not conspiracy theory anymore. These are facts. They're historical record. The question now isn't trying to prove that this stuff happened or the CIA did this or that. The questions we should be asking now is what do we do about it? Who holds responsibility, if anybody does? You don't have to ... I'm no longer writing books and doing research trying to prove the case. The case has proven itself. The next step is what to do about it. Who has responsibility, if anyone, and are they still doing it? How successful were they?
Is that the reason why today you see so many more clearly psychopathic people attacking people, doing all kinds of horrendous crimes? Believe me, these crimes that people were locked up for in Oak Ridge back in the '60s, they were extraordinarily rare. There wasn't a lot of child murderers. The few that happened historically are pretty well documented, but it was nothing like it is now. I think everyone is clear that psychopaths are among us and probably more than ever in positions of authority because the experiments from the '50s, '60s, early '70s were so damn successful, now we're swimming in the results.
OHH What do you think ... You talk about what should happen. Do you know if Dr. Barker is still ... I mean he must be an old man by now, but you had talked about ... In your book you speak about you found his website strangely called The Center for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and that he was actually ... Had writing with him and probably practicing with him people who weren't doctors, but were actually patients while you were in there at Oak Ridge. Do you want to talk about the story of Dr. Barker after ... As you started to kind of rediscover the real history of this?
Steve Smith Sure. Elliott Barker is still ... I won't even call him Dr. Barker. Elliott Barker, he's still in practice as far as I know, although this is ... My information is a few years old, but he's still in practice. He runs a foundation called The Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, and that should scare you right there. That should make you wonder, because there's no person that I know in history that was more cruel to children than he was.
Anyway, that's his foundation. You can look it up. It still exists. It's connected to something called Empathetic Parenting, so he's intimately involved in child development. What they discovered about creating psychopaths ... I think this was their main discovery, you need to get them young. We were all teenagers or 20-somethings. What they discovered is you can create a psychopath if you can get them young enough, thus his practice today ... Well, I'll leave it to people to do their own research on The Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and Empathetic Parenting, but if you look deeply into this, you'll find some really bad news.
OHH I'd like to read one more quote that was in ... This was in the Globe and Mail article, but it's a quote that you also discussed on Black Op Radio, was ... This is a quote from Dr. Barker:
"If the process were one of eradicating a set of disproved ideas and washing in different social values, then we would be committing offenses as grievous as those involved in setting up the Third Reich, indeed the more sinister because of their subtlety."
The difference he wrote, "Was that the patients had not chosen their values. On the other hand, if our patients did not choose to deviate from society's norms but rather were driven to such deviations by internal unresolved conflicts, then we should help them resolve such conflicts by every means at our disposal, including force, humiliation and depravation if necessary."
It seems like he firmly has these experiments of the Nazis in mind.
Steve Smith Yeah. I think that particular paper that he wrote ... I think he makes it pretty clear that he knew that he was up to something bad. He compared what he was doing to what the Nazis did, but he justified himself by saying if we weren't so screwed up, if us patients were somehow so deviant, then it would justify what Nazis did. Isn't that another way of reading that?
OHH Yeah.
Steve Smith Sure. He in fact admitted in that paper ... If you carry on a little further down that, he also says something to the effect that as the confrontation approaches a maximum the permissible use of force also approaches maximum. What is a maximum use of force? Killing people, isn't it?
OHH Right.
Steve Smith He's justifying ... He made some serious mistakes in some of his own publications, which once again demonstrates his arrogance, the sheer arrogance that they had back then. I'm sure they very much regret those words to day.
OHH You were talking about some of the use of force. I mean you had the ... In your book you discuss the way people were subdued with towels and saw some people who you believe died in front of you. You also talk about threats of rape going on in there.
Steve Smith All the time. It's in my book. The details of the thing is horrendous. Anyone that wants to read the prurient details, please read my book, because I'm just not going to repeat some of this stuff publicly. It's in the book to read. Some people kind of like to read that. They get a thrill from it, which is unfortunate, but people need to know I suppose what went on in there even though it's history. This is not contemporary. There's enough contemporary stuff going on to keep us occupied, but knowing the history of how we got to where we are today is a pretty good thing.
OHH Absolutely. I mean I think it goes a lot to what some of the people in Guantanamo Bay or what some of the torture that was being done to people that they swept up in Afghanistan, terrorists or not, a lot of this medical torture, and psychological torture I think.
Steve Smith Waterboarding. Everyone knows what waterboarding is now because the term got coined to describe something that was going on in Guantanamo, but this very same technique was going on in Oak Ridge, probably slightly different mechanics, but the notion of making someone think they're drowning with a wet towel, that was going on in Oak Ridge decades ago. Remember, this is almost 50 years ago, 48 some years ago. This was the beginning of discovering these techniques and today they're still effectively using them, aren't they?
OHH Yeah. Absolutely. What would you like ... I mean there's these lawsuits, there's the idea of giving money to people, there's admissions of judges, there's articles in the newspaper. What would you really like to see? You're someone who' not seeking money from this. What would you like to see happen to Dr. Barker? How would you like to see this publicized or what would you like to see happen now at this point?
Steve Smith Exactly what I would like to see happen has already happened. All you have to do is just Google Dr. Elliott T. Barker. Just Google his name and look at his reputation. Look at what comes up. Anyone that does the least bit of research into Oak Ridge, the program and the doctors involved ... They have no reputation. Everybody knows that what they did was horrible and I suppose they got away with it. But they didn't get away with it because you have a horrible reputation. They will go down in history as bad people. Their victims won't.
The people that went through all of this to one extent or another ... Whoever survived and whatever kind of condition they're in today, many of them probably are still in prison or very confused people living very difficult lives. There's nothing to be done for them. The damage is done. You can't fix this. There's nothing you can do to fix it. All you can do is recognize what happened and who was responsible, and that's already been done.
All of this, including this interview, helps people understand how bad these people were, and many of them are still alive and they need to be held accountable. They'll never be held financially accountable because their insurance and lawyers take care of all of that. It's not about money anyway. You can't hand somebody money and make all of this go away. They are held responsible for the dirty deeds that they did and they have no professional reputation anymore. That's justice. That's karma. This has turned out exactly the way I hoped it would turn out. I don't want anything more. I'm not asking for more, just that people pay attention to this and don't let it happen again.
OHH Two things I want to ... Do you want to talk a little bit about Dr. Hoffman, who was another doctor who I guess maybe a little earlier on or when you were first starting to investigate this looked at your case and he came up with his own professional opinion of Dr. Barker. Do you want to tell us what that was? It was pretty interesting.
Steve Smith Yeah. The law firm that was representing me in this case that went on for 16 years hired a number of expert witnesses, some financial people to show loss of income. One of the expert witnesses was Dr. Brian Hoffman from North York Hospital in Toronto. I had to fly from Vancouver to Toronto on two separate occasions over a 10 year period in this lawsuit where he conducted interviews and we had extensive discussions and he examined my progress and my life.
He came to basically the same conclusion that I came to a long time ago. I'm not crazy. I never was. I'm not a psychopath. I'm just about as normal a human being as you're going to find. I wound up quite successful in life. Dr. Barker [sic - Steve means Dr. Hoffman] wrote his review of our meetings for the court case, which eventually never came to court. It was settled out of court. That's another story. I describe that in my book.
OHH Speaking of another group of people that I found looked pretty evil in your book was you initially had kind of come across the paperwork that ... Your clinical records, some of the paperwork, and you went to ... You're going to have to tell me the names of it, but basically what I think in the United States would be the American Medical Association, but in Canada. Do you want to talk about how your initial attempts to bring this to their attention were just kind of sloughed off?
Steve Smith Oh total coverup. This is a mutual admiration society, is what they do. This would be the College of Physicians and Surgeons and the Health Professions Review Board something, I forget the name. They are basically ... They're supposed to be monitoring the behavior of their own colleagues and preventing this kind of thing, but that's not what they do in reality.
So it's no surprise to me that in the beginning they just wrote this all off and claimed that it didn't happen at all until abundant evidence proved that it did happen. I have a lot of communication back and forth, a boxful of files. I have no respect for these organizations at all. They just ... They protected the guilty, is what they did.
OHH It's shocking. This is not something that people can ignore and like the news loves to do, call everything a conspiracy theory or say it's not what it was. This is in the courts and it's in the news and there's people like you testifying to it. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that I missed or that you think you'd like to say?
Steve Smith There's so many facets to this story that you can't really ... You can't cover it in an interview. There's too much to discuss. There's too many facets to this and one thing will carry you somewhere else. I'm happy to answer any questions that people ask me, but I can't really spell it all out in an interview. All I can say is please read the book and then ask me questions. I'll gladly expand on any of that and tell you anything more that I can follow up on various issues that I brought up in the book, and also Tom Mangold's book [Splashed], and also Jon Ronson's The Psychopath Test. He writes about me in that book as well.
Some good news. I can give you some good news with this. The Psychopath Machine is in the process of being turned into a movie. I've already signed a deal. Being that we live in a visual age, people don't have too much time for reading anymore. We're bombarded with too much of this stuff and we can only cover the surface of issues like this, but what might take this more in depth is turning it into a movie, so good to know that that's in process.
OHH That really makes a big difference of the public perception of things. Do you want to mention the website of the book and mention the name of the book and where people can get it?
Steve Smith The book is called The Psychopath Machine. It's available on Amazon and all the other book selling places. You can find my website ... I would suggest people that want to know ... want a condensed version of this to understand quite a lot of it, go to my website, thepsychopathmachine.com, and look at the videos. Go to the media site and there are I think four videos. Watch "F-ward". The "F-ward" video was shot at the time and it's very revealing.
The only reason why this video is available to anyone is ... I explain in my book how I managed to get a copy of this video, which was aired once and then embargoed by CTV. Back years ago, if you asked them about it they would say it doesn't exist, but I got hold of a copy of it and now it's everywhere, so go to the website and watch those videos and that will give you a lot to think about.
OHH I definitely suggest people do that, and I'm going to put ... We always do a transcript of the interview and we'll put the interview online and then I'll put some of the documentation I found about the case that was available and some of these newspaper articles on there. Of course you in your book, in the appendix of your book, you have several examples of these clinical records listing the drugs that you were administered and you even have some of your correspondence with Dr. Barker in there, so it's very interesting. It's very well documented. Thank you very much for coming to talk. This can't be an easy subject for you to talk about, but I appreciate you talking about it.
Steve Smith It's been my pleasure. It's really not hard for me to talk about this. It's so far in the past and things have worked out so well for me that ... You know, life is good. I'm enjoying myself and I enjoyed this conversation.
OHH Good. It is worth saying that you ... Despite that you endured that and then went through some very hard times after the fact ... Do you want to talk a little bit about your life to give people some hope that ...
Steve Smith I don't like to consider myself a survivor, because then you're kind of ... You take this victimization approach, and I never liked to do that in my life. I like to just get on with it, just put that behind you and get on with it. But I think it's important that people know these things, because if you don't it still goes on. If people get away with doing things like this like they did, then they continue to do it and people are oblivious to it.
The more people are aware, the better. Fortunately I got through it without ... I can't say I wasn't harmed. I was, but it took 10 years to get over it, but I'm a beach ball. It just naturally rises back up.
OHH Good. I think that gives people hope. When I read 1,200 people affected by this, when your story is repeated 1,200 times and for many, many years it's quite shocking, so I was very glad to talk to you. I'm glad to hear you're in the condition your in and I wish you luck with the movie. Again, everybody should definitely get the book and read it. It really should be read to understand what was going on back then and that our tax dollars ultimately paid for, so thank you very much Steve.
Steve Smith Thanks David. Nice talking to you.
OHH Same to you.
Steve Smith Bye now.